Dramatic SFB: WoA
Gregory Flusche
shagrat1960 at gmail.com
Wed Nov 21 14:18:30 PST 2018
Ah now that was my thoughts when playing in these campaigns. Removing
income based on Border size helped level the field some. Still taking out
his borders does not help you at all.
Now how to base this in a realistic type way? That matches with the SFU as
we know it. As it stands you are in charge of the combat fleet of your
race. You send ships to were you think they are needed most. Using
diplomacy to gain easy battles on some borders and fighting with full
forces on others. There is no real way to declare war on any other side.
Nor any benafit from doing so are ill effects either. There is no way of
winning vs another race except by closing all borders with that race and
that then hurts you as well. The only limit to your fleet size is how many
BPV Economic points you have to spend.
The first bit about being in charge of the fleet is fine. The random
scenario generator seams to be working very well. The problem as i see it
is the fleet size and economic side of things. Matt helped the economic
part of things by gaining a set number of points for everyone plus what you
win from battles. This is still not perfect as can be seen by my huge
static border with the Great Green Gorn. It is giving both of us a huge
income amount, The shit would hit the fan if we both decided to start to
contest battles there. Realistically I think that the Government of each
race would not let a fleet just keep growing as eventually one could not
support that fleet via manpower are economics. That was why my suggestion
before of a max fleet size. Then once your fleet is at Max size allowed...
one would stockpile EP drive a hard turn of combat and rebuild your fleet
next turn. Rebuild your stock pile and go at it again. You could still have
battles that are overwhelming force but not every were. Players would not
want huge borders as you would not have the ships to cover them all and
lose EPs because of it.
Now the next and hardest part would be fleet size :). I did ask Matt about
maintenance costs for ships and his answer was ack the headache for
implementing it into the the generator. I do prefer that it is covered
already. I did put forth 0.5 move cost per border. Not sure if this would
work are not.. sigh. Me i was thinking a full fleet as in S8 Dn are large
command ship the battle group of 6 LC DD hulls and then HC and specialty
ships. This does not work for all races as some have cheaper ships and
there full fleet would be a lot cheaper then a full force of Gorns are
fully refitted ISC, Hydrans full of fighters as well would mess up the BPV,
So it must be some kind of economic value for the fleets i would think.
On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:43 AM Charles Carroll via SFBdrama <
sfbdrama at lists.mattnet.org> wrote:
> Ok also...after considering some things carefully. Matt's idea is that you
> can win by eliminating the other guys borders.
>
> Sounds reasonable. But does not actually work. If Matt and I are playing
> against each other. Yes...I can eliminate his borders. This though is a
> Pyrrhic Victory. In that I killed his border. Yeah me. And...I killed my
> border. So in order to kill him I have to kill me. But wait...there are
> other people who might? Kill his borders...and their own. And so he is now
> gone and the rest of us are left. Assuming it works out where every other
> person with borders with him kills his borders. If not...he never dies. And
> since we each lost the same number of borders...how did this make me
> better? Or improve my position in anyway. All it really did was reduce both
> me and him against the other people. So there is no actual benefit from
> doing this.
>
> So the better answer becomes. What I am ending up doing to Justin. He is
> getting hammered and cannot gain anything on my borders. Which means he is
> constantly losing ground not just with me but every where. So killing
> borders is not really useful except if you are losing constantly. Then you
> want those borders gone to stop losing points when you lose a defense
> fight. And to stop giving the enemy points if they win either type fight.
>
> Anyway. I am wondering if the lose border concept is actually very useful
> at all. Add borders? Yes. But lose a border hurts me as much as it hurts
> him.
>
> Just more thoughts.
>
> Chuck
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:35 AM Charles Carroll <mastrvran at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well lol...if you paid attention preturn to the Emails I send you. You
>> would have maybe? Noticed. That I asked for your ability to defend...what
>> you planned to send so we could balance the scenario and fight instead of
>> me just running you over. You keep ignoring those and after we send stuff
>> saying why did you send large fleets?
>>
>> I send them cause at the moment I have them. I have very few borders that
>> I can fight on because like you, I came late to this Campaign. So made
>> treaties early. Most of which, while making sure I still have income and
>> auto expanding my borders there, also means I end up just needing a small
>> ship to take the scenario since I know that nothing else is heading my way.
>>
>> With that said. I am seriously considering just dying a horrible death,
>> and declaring all truces are over. Because as you say. No fights occur.
>> Which is one reason I was trying to think of something that would induce
>> people to commit forces and have to fight some. Other than just say to heck
>> with truces. Which some will not do. So those who do end up...always back
>> to square one and cannot field a force strong enough to contest a scenario.
>>
>> Anyway. Just some thoughts.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:25 AM TJ Hooker via SFBdrama <
>> sfbdrama at lists.mattnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>> At the end of the day, including all the rhetoric, everyone is playing a
>>> strategic level game ala F&E with email diplomacy, I see a fraction of the
>>> actual battles generated played out. You guys can keep going back and forth
>>> and Charles loves to send me long emails about how he just cant help what
>>> is happening, its serendipity or something, hes not in control? Something..
>>> The reality is he has all of his other boarders secure via diplomacy and
>>> sends literally everything my way every turn, generating overwhelming force
>>> scenarios turn after turn. He is certainly winning, in that I cannot engage
>>> these scenarios (I came late to the game and am clearly the smallest fleet
>>> he has to face, lets be clear about that too, ala min/maxing) and I
>>> generally don't get any EP from his boarder, which is about 30% of my EP.
>>>
>>> I have managed to generate one battle in idk.. 4-5 months? So, if the
>>> goal here is to generate battles its not working, this is an email
>>> strategic level campaign in the end. So keep talking about it, awesome,
>>> however if you are going to keep doing the same thing turn after turn
>>> (Charles) and expect somehow a different result.. well then your literally
>>> crazy. :) Have a great day, and thank you for sending all of your cruisers
>>> and your DN once again for like the 5-6th turn my way, cheers! (I seriously
>>> wonder what you are sending to the other 21 boxes on your boarder when the
>>> 4 you have with me literally have your entire cruiser fleet..)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 7:21:50 AM PST, TJ Hooker via SFBdrama <
>>> sfbdrama at lists.mattnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the end of the day, including all the rhetoric, everyone is playing a
>>> strategic level game ala F&E with email diplomacy, I see a fraction of the
>>> actual battles generated played out. You guys can keep going back and forth
>>> and Charles loves to send me long emails about how he just cant help what
>>> is happening, its serendipity or something, hes not in control? Something..
>>> The reality is he has all of his other boarders secure via diplomacy and
>>> sends literally everything my way every turn, generating overwhelming force
>>> scenarios turn after turn. He is certainly winning, in that I cannot engage
>>> these scenarios (I came late to the game and am clearly the smallest fleet
>>> he has to face, lets be clear about that too, ala min/maxing) and I
>>> generally don't get any EP from his boarder, which is about 30% of my EP.
>>>
>>> I have managed to generate one battle in idk.. 4-5 months? So, if the
>>> goal here is to generate battles its not working, this is an email
>>> strategic level campaign in the end. So keep talking about it, awesome,
>>> however if you are going to keep doing the same thing turn after turn
>>> (Charles) and expect somehow a different result.. well then your literally
>>> crazy. :) Have a great day, and thank you for sending all of your cruisers
>>> and your DN once again for like the 5-6th turn my way, cheers! (I seriously
>>> wonder what you are sending to the other 21 boxes on your boarder when the
>>> 4 you have with me literally have your entire cruiser fleet..)
>>> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:29:56 PM PST, Gregory Flusche <
>>> shagrat1960 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Going with this subject matter.
>>>
>>> First winning the game.. A} destroy 3X as many BPV of other players.
>>> This would encourage players to do combat.
>>> B} have 3X As many borders of any
>>> other race.
>>> C} have 3 X the income of any
>>> other races.
>>> D} have 3X the stockpiled ECP
>>> then any other race,
>>>
>>> Other ideas. Have a fixed fleet size for each player. you could even
>>> have a fleet size for each player you border depending on the number of
>>> borders with that player.
>>> As if i have 4 border hexes with Player A. I can have 0.5 move cost per
>>> border. So 4 DD hulls 2 CA are combination. So can Player A on my border.
>>> This would make battles more even sometimes. Still one could put all ships
>>> in one border and still overwhelm. Still your fleet can only be so big.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 5:50 PM Charles Carroll <mastrvran at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Muhahaha....Whats really funny...is I sent this a one on one email...and
>>> it popped up as everyone. So I cant click worth crap it seems.
>>>
>>> Anyway...I do feel we need to sooner or later start doing adjustments of
>>> some kind. Or have an agreed upon cut off turn. Or something But if we do
>>> have a cut off turn. What is the basis for who wins? The amount listed on
>>> the left near the bottom of your screen that says Empire score? How is that
>>> calculated? Simply how much BPV you have?
>>>
>>> In other words I have no idea how I am doing over all. And because this
>>> is strictly a scenario based campaign with no Empire Benefits. There is no
>>> effective feed back as to what is happening anywhere in the Empire nor is
>>> there any indication if my efforts have helped the Empire other than more
>>> ships keep appearing.
>>>
>>> Now I am not saying in any shape or form that is a bad thing. And I
>>> could see it being possible to effectively kill a player but him never
>>> winning a scenario...and since you lose points every time you defend and
>>> lose...it would be possible to be running negative points. But...that also
>>> has no real world consequences, as in I am down 200 points and have to
>>> destroy 200 BPV of ships.
>>>
>>> I know this is designed purely around having fights. But....the issue
>>> with that is...as an example, I have 22 borders. I had at the most 4 to 5
>>> actual fights that could happen. And most of them as MD pointed out...are
>>> impossible to play for him. So we end up with lots of nice treaties.
>>> Protected borders all over and one or two players we beat the crap out of.
>>> But even so. It just means we end up never fighting.
>>>
>>> So I am just thinking we need something to make fighting either more
>>> attractive, of failing to fight have actual issues that have long term
>>> effects. Maybe instead of losing points, if you lose. Lose a border, which
>>> will end up driving you out of the game. And give the one who took your
>>> scenario...(Only on Defense) a new border with someone else. So saying
>>> nah...I wont defend this becomes not an option anyone wants. Actual
>>> repercussions to failing to meet the enemy.
>>>
>>> Anyway some thoughts on how to keep it interesting. I just feel there
>>> needs to be more than...well I woke up today...a turn ran and...I took a
>>> lot of points uncontested. The few fights I could have had were all
>>> overwhelming. So gee...what do I spend this constantly expanding BPV pool
>>> on this turn....so next turn I can do it all again.
>>>
>>> Another possibility, is make all scenarios, have serious limits lime
>>> move cost requirements. Or all need to be size class restricted of some
>>> type. With some just free for all, bring what ever fleet you can build for
>>> a massive contest with serious rewards to make sending your main battle
>>> fleet out worthwhile.
>>>
>>> Thoughts from the mind of a demented captain.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 4:51 PM Gregory Flusche <shagrat1960 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I do understand about the how do we win this campaign. IT is evolving
>>> and Matt loves feed back :)/
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:56 PM Charles Carroll via SFBdrama <
>>> sfbdrama at lists.mattnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Lol I have all this stuff sitting around so I send it. But...as I have
>>> said....I am certainly willing to sens stuff home and just field a fleet
>>> equal to you so we can play.
>>>
>>> Just give me a point range and I will drop stuff. I am real easy. I am
>>> actually getting kind of tired of this type campaign because there is no
>>> real way to win. It is interesting. But...after the first few turns...it
>>> gets predictable. And once treaties and truces get set...it gets absurd as
>>> you are seeing.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 11:28 PM TJ Hooker <metaldog09 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I see that once again the bulk of your real and actual fighting force
>>> has managed to find its into the 4 boxes on my boarder while the other *21
>>> BOXES manage to find what? 9 snipes? lol man.. are you kidding with this
>>> crap?* I get your DN and all of your cruisers again, and for the last 5
>>> turns ?!!? If the point of this game is to rack up the biggest strategic
>>> fleet and to play the email diplomacy game lets just stop now and declare
>>> you the big winner..lol. wow man, wow.
>>>
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